Just shy of 2000 words on this one. Just as an aside, do you get drops of spit spraying when you talk?

You can give a damn or not, they are as likely to flip you off or shake your hand no matter what anyone thinks or says. When there is a national crisis, they are Americans, but when not much is going on, they revert to thinking of themselves as whatever ethnic group from which they have descended, and also depends on which generation, and if they have married inside their own ethnic group.

HRH’s grandparents are first generation Irish. They have contacts in Ireland, and are proud of their heritage. However, when the old man went to visit “the old country”, some guy in a pub came up to him and wanted to start a fight over US policies because pops was an American. It was at that point pops embraced his American citizenship and I think his daughter had to escort him out of the pub so there would not be violence.

Tell me, if you emigrated to another country, took up citizenship, how do you think you would feel or react in the new culture? Would you keep your Scottish traditions? How about any children you have? Would you want them to abandon their Scottish heritage in favor of adopting the customs of the new country?

In my case, I can not claim anything in particular for heritage because I have ancestors from all over Europe. But you make a point. The more diluted the ethnicity becomes, the less people are inclined to claim to be Italian, or French or whatever. I have said I am Italian, but it doesn’t mean anything to me, just as my German, Danish, English and Swiss ancestry means nothing to me. Did you see the movie “My big fat Greek wedding”? That is typical.

I am really a descendant from the garden of Eden. (possibly the snake)

These ethnic groups don’t want to move back, they just want to re-create here. This is one of the problems we are having with the Mexican and Porto Rican immigrants. There are so many that every product and service is in English and Spanish. It is really pissing some of the English speakers people off. I am irritated because of the extra tax dollars that go into dual everything.

It is interesting that you note that there is a new influx of immigrants into Europe. This book I am reading now, “Liberty of Conscious”, discusses the problems of church and state issues in Europe. I remember when I was very young, must have been the 60’s when there was a lot of racial tension in the US, hearing my mother bitch about the criticisms coming out of the European countries on the way we were handling things. Her counter complaint was “they do not have these problems, the French are all French; Italians, all Italians; British, all British. Sure they had ethnics and races, but in such small percentages that there were no problems there.

This book is talking about the difficulties that the French are having now with the increasing Muslim population. Basically, it is not as easy as it looks dealing with this diversity. You might want to read this book, another one you can pitch into the street from time to time although it is more about our constitutional issues with church and state, but uses comparisons with the European community.
As to the “African-American” bs, I think that was thought up as a user friendly way to make racial differentiations without using derogatory terms.
We are a bizarre people.
PETA would have a fit if we started eating cats…so would a lot of old ladies. (I wonder why cats seem to be the choice of animal hoarding old women)
If we were capable of learning from history, this world would be a paradise. It seems that is not possible for us in our current state of evolution. No matter what the emigration patterns are, or over how long a period of time they take, we always manage to create an “us” and “them”.
Americans invented hot dogs, corn dogs, and waffle cones. I don’t really know what a grit is, or from what it comes. My dad use to love them even though he was not from the south. I don’t know why he liked them, because they taste like nothing, just something in your mouth. In the southern US, restaurants serve it with every dish, almost as much as the north serves French Fries (although for a while, some restaurants called them freedom fries because of animosity for the French as if the French have anything to do with French fries….i don’t know how they got that name…like French toast, do the French make French toast?) It was the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I think the bar where HRH works still has them listed like that on their menu. Grits may be filling, but I’ve no idea what, if any, nutritional value it has.
My, but you had your dander up on this one. Two of the biggest problems (aside from Bush and Cheney) the US has now is racial and religious divisiveness. There is a growing lack of tolerance. I am not sure what is fueling it. Possibly growing hard times for many Americans although our most impoverished can not hold a candle to some of the third world countries problems. We are losing our middle class, essentially the backbone of the country.

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

THIS IS A HUG CERTIFICATE ! !

Send one to all your friends who you think deserve a hug (which, hopefully includes the person who sent it to you)!!

You might send it to your enemies as well!
It'll really make them stop and think!!!

If you don't receive this back, nobody likes you, and they wish you'd stop bugging them!

If you receive this back 1 time, open up! Find more friends, enemies, or enemies pretending to be friends

If you receive this back 2 times, you're off to a good start! (Unless you sent it to yourself! That's cheating!)

If you receive this back 3 times, you're a good friend.

If you receive this back 4 times, you're truly loved as a friend!!

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YOU'VE BEEN HUGGED!

Spread the DA love around! (you can copy and paste this message on their userpage!)

RULES:
1- You can hug the person who hugged you!
2- You -MUST- hug 6 other people, at least!
3- You should hug them in public! Paste it on their user page!
4- Random hugs are perfectly okay! (and sweet)
5- You should most definitely get started hugging right away!

--
To know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice~Confucius

Creo ergo sum

I don't give a damn what they take exception to. They can take a number and wait in the queue. This is a pet hate and something that often annoys everyone outside of the USA's borders. They are not real Italians by any means. If that cuts too close to the truth they know deep down inside and causes them to get upset then it's just what they were needing. A wake-up call.

Just because someone insists they are a god doesn't mean I have to treat them like one either (although I keep in mind the rule that if someone asks if you are one, always say "yes"). They are American whether they like it or not in their fantasy world of make believe. If they don't then they can all go and get buggered for all I care. No one thinks they are Italian but themselves. It's as bad as seeing the people claiming to be "Irish" talking with, for instance, an obvious Texan accent and their US flag planted on the lawn (and an especially delightful example are those even going so far as to blame their love of drink on the delightful stereotype of the Irish being drunkards rather than their own woeful lack of willpower) or someone claiming to be Scottish because their great great grandfather sat on a thistle once. Madness. The one claiming to be Irish has no more real connection to Ireland than the one claiming to be Italian has to Ireland. Change a single line on an ancestor's birth certificate and I can pass off their origin or nationality as Mozambique instead and watch them suddenly make believe with that instead. If that is all the difference it takes then it is irrelevant and shows that they are more American than anything else. Same for all the other Yanks in denial and those who indulge these people without correcting them. Who are they meant to be fooling with this charade? It is clearly stupid. The emperor has no clothes and far too many in America today seem willing to play along and say how delightful the outfit looks.

Why are they ashamed just to be American rather than "Something-American" or even outright claiming just to be the "Something" part, in contrary to all the evidence and their own knowledge? Why can't they be happy with where they are from rather than live in denial by indulging in this fantasy world with an invented or borrowed identity? There are people in America whose family lineage descends from countries that don't even exist as political entities any more or regions that are now separate countries when before they were part of another and so on. So how does that work then? Just pick one out of the hat and start playing dress-up and importing beer to suit the whim? May as well throw a dart at the map then and see what you get. Never mind the fact that many those people left those original countries because they didn't like it there and wanted to move to America for better opportunities or some other complaint. They gave up those identities and places for something new and different. If those Italians loved Italy so much then chances are they would have stayed there rather than giving up Italy and if the American families are so keen on being Italian then why aren't they moving over there now? Nonsense. Everyone there was American at the same point the thirteen colonies stopped being British. The moment the ink was drying on the original treaties dividing the two areas (and in spirit before that when a significant enough number decided to separate and stopped identifying themselves as British subjects and as American instead) it was sealed and set and the people were American over anything else.

It'd be as stupid as me claiming to be French all of a sudden because of some French/Norman ancestry from a thousand ago or so or the various other tribes and countries in the past generations that have somehow drifted through the world. If you aren't American after generations of family being there then who is American? Are you American only if you can't trace any ancestry as it was lost or forgotten so you don't get to take part in the game of pretending to be another nationality? Everything and everyone has an origin from somewhere else if you want to play it like that. Humans populated the world by spreading from Africa. In that case we are all African instead then if we are to play this game to its inevitable and silly conclusion. What fun.

All countries today are made up of a mix of people from all around with a complex and intertwining history. No one sprung out of the Earth and lived on one spot.

By the same note I don't care if someone has a different coloured skin, they are as British as anyone else if they were born and raised here. It works both ways. I don't want any "African-British" nonsense like that "African-American" stuff I hear. It just divides people where it need not.

America and many other places around the world where the same thing happens would be better off if people could let go of it as you say and melt. It stops divisions and binds them together rather than causing them to separate themselves and tie them to outside places. I've seen such attitudes cause tension and bloodshed in less fortunate countries or regions. People clinging to foreign identities even after many generations rather than truly accepting the new home country and causing tension where there needn't be any. A big issue with immigration today too. If you are all living in one country it is better to identify with that country than anywhere else. Other countries also learned to forge their identities anew when they were founded. Italy and the rest weren't around since the creation of the Earth. It was forged anew at some point from peoples or lands that were at one time were separate. Most (but not all) of them today just did a lot of it before the USA did, but everyone had to do the same at some point.

It always seems bizarre that a country so passionate about waving the flag and overt (or crass to some foreign tastes) displays of patriotism would then cling to a foreign identity at the same time.

You never know, perhaps the way the cat was prepared was for the local tastes. Do you know enough about the various styles of cat dishes to know for certain how it was prepared? Give it time and a few generations and America will have it's own well known ways and styles of serving cat. Of course you'd have to first let those first generation immigrants try to prepare it and let them carry on unmolested. Could be the tricky part.

I think this is where a good dose of history would do you and others good, at least enough of it hammered home so that people keep it in mind. By history I mean world history and ancient history rather than just the local stuff. First of all what do you call indigenous? Again, look at the history of invasions and displacements of tribes and the blending that went on. It starts losing its meaning if you keep going back and finding another culture displacing yet another time and again. The main thing you'll see is that these cultures did not form in perfect vacuums, separate from all others.

Remember that Europe and the rest of the world has been made up of constant tribal movements, invasions, immigrations, revolutions, conquests and so on. No one today in England would claim to be Roman, even if it did rule there once an age ago as it wouldn't make any sense. The Celtic culture was not limited to or didn't start off in Ireland, the UK or Brittany, but ended up there eventually and survived the longest. These things change over the centuries and millennia.

"Stealing culture" is something I may enjoy taunting Americans with, but whence do you think it came for everyone else? They took was was inherited and taught to them and over generations it was slowly modified. That is the natural way of things for us all. That is also why you see connections between cultures and peoples as you examine them. Italians did not appear millions of years ago speaking Italian and making pizzas in an isolated land until the walls came down yesterday. Everything from the earliest movement of man, the tribal displacements, medieval kingdoms, colonial developments and modern immigrations and communications have all had their influence. Throughout it all is a stream of trade, immigration and a flow of ideas too. There are things that are American and there are things that are blatantly stolen. The blatantly stolen part comes from playing along with the charade of being Italian or some such, rather than being American as they truly are.

"Standing on the shoulders of giants", as was said long ago of science and understanding in general. It applies to other things too, such as art, languages and cultures in general. One day everything you and others create today and in these generations will be the foundation for the next and the next, each making small changes of their own before passing it on until one day it is almost unrecognisable. Does that mean they deserve no credit for their own inventions and work though, just because of the nature of mortality and birth or that it had a basis on something else? Of course not. Modern cars and aeroplanes are variations and developments from ideas that came about generations ago, but you wouldn't say that the idea of your Toyota truck was stolen from Trevithick because he made a steam-powered vehicle centuries ago. All cars on sale today are modern variations of earlier ideas like that, but no one dismisses them as stolen (and the cars don't all try to claim they were made by Trevithick either, for that matter) and without merit.

French cuisine and culture wouldn't be what it is today without Italian and it took influence from the French, Spanish and Greeks and others, back and forth over the centuries. Where do you draw the line to say who gets credit and so on? Your regional dishes deserve as much credit as as the regional variations of the same basic ideas in Florence, Naples or Venice as none of them would ever back down on which was the true or better one. Not that they should. Why should only they be allowed to make a variant of something? Even with something as simple as bread I see variation within the UK, never mind outside of it and no one is claiming sole ownership of the concept of bread. There are always new foods and drinks being invented. It's the changes to an idea that make it your own. Why not celebrate and enjoy them? It is how the country in question is today and where you are living now that matters most of all.

Grits is possibly one of those things that everywhere has something very similar to when crops allow for it. It would be wasteful not to in some eras and cultures if they didn't make use of what they had. Sensible and filling peasant food.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

I think the Italian Americans would take exception to being called not real Italians, no matter what the Italians in the boot say. Actually, it is one of the unfortunate aspects of the “melting pot”. People don’t let go of their cultural heritage and melt.

Obviously the asian restaurant having cat on the menu was an example of not changing the cuisine until the law caught up to them.

No, I actually think we steal our culture from every corner of the world. We may modify it, but how can anything be original when so much of the population is not indigenous.

I couldn’t say what the Germans are actually eating. Sometimes a food item just has a different name, like hoagies and subs. Same thing, different name.

We certainly have regional dishes, but again, these have their origins from other countries (except grits, no idea where that came from and think it should go back, but that is just me)

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

By Italians do you mean real Italians or people born in America and simply of Italian decent? Not the same thing, despite what many Americans seem to think. I got it from an Italian living in Italy.

One example is pizza. In America it often differs from what is common in Italy (I remember once hearing an American make a boast of it too as he considered it improving on the original). You can end up with all manner of regional variants there that are different from the originally introduced idea and different from other parts of the world. It seems a reasonable claim.

I've heard of the same happening with Indian and Cantonese dishes here. The Indian/Cantonese immigrant family chefs come up with new ideas over the generations and then they end up travelling back to those places sometimes and it is known as a variant by those that emigrated long ago. I remember an interview with an Indian chef over there saying some were sold and known as such there. Don't you think that with all that time and all those people that people living in America that they can come up with some new and original ideas and variations to recipes? I think it'd be silly to think they couldn't. It's not as if people elsewhere in the world can only make identical copies of what came before them for all time either. I think the variation is a good thing too. More for us all to sample and to suit everyone's tastes.

Of course even the idea of something being "Italian" is simplifying it too much. In Italy there's going to be regional variants of all manner of things if you go to different parts of the country. It can be impossible to say one idea is more Italian than another without upsetting someone. If things vary in style even within Italy for some things with time then why not across the world in a large country over generations?

You should look at what happens with even common take away food in America after it has been introduced elsewhere and each country has its way with it. Places and people tend to put their stamp on ideas eventually. Changes can be small or significant. What is popular in one country may seem repellent to the average person here or there too. I've heard of some weird things coming about as a result of a blending of American culture and some other country.

America may be made of up immigrants, but that doesn't mean everything just has to have come from somewhere else. You can get American art, music, fashions, politics and so on too. Dare I say American culture? I enjoy taunting Yanks as much as the next person, but I would be surprised if you genuinely thought America had no influence or culture of it's own making. Give your country some credit.

I've heard of Germans talking about getting "Chicago-style pizza" (or some other American style) in a local German town. Doesn't that show how these things change and travel?

Australia also has odd varieties of other people's ideas and it's a much smaller country made up in much the same way. It happens all over the world with all manner of foods and things.

Perhaps you've not spend long enough trying to look at the place from the outside viewpoint to see it? Kind of like you said many moons ago that people rarely notice or think of their own accent, thinking of only people who speak differently as having an accent. You could be looking at things there and not seeing the American or local influence in it as you are steeped in it.

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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

i've eaten in a lot of Italian restaurants, and have quite a few Italian relatives, but have never heard of this American Style. Where are you getting this information. Perhaps this is a souther or mid west thing since east cost has plenty of Italians

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

Everywhere has some eventually, just as everyone borrows and copies from others for ideas. The French robbed a lot from the Italians in cooking, but they still have their own ideas too. Cooking is like the spoken language that way.

Often the American versions of dishes will be made to local tastes over time too. I've heard of American versions of Italian dishes being sold there and being labelled as "American style".

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

I did not know we had a style; we are always copying other styles

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

Not a problem. I am in no great hurry. I just ate.

I'll read up on recipes on how to cook American style in the meantime.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

in that case
this may take some time

--
"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

I'll try not to murder and cannibalise you until you are certain of your decision then, oh great DECIDER.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

i may be the DECIDER, but i don't make snap decisions

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

the stockings might be in the shade of the body

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

Because there would be no fun in it for me and then what's the point of that? Tsk.

Although I could probably come up with something to suit the women can cover a little more. Perhaps solar stockings...

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

why can't women wear a shirt, or hat...that would be even better...they could even add extra directional panels

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

A shirt would be a good start. I'll make up some environmental reason for it if it will encourage them to do it.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

what do the men have to wear

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

I hope if they are in Iraq, they are safe and well, and coming home soon

--
"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

You have just decided upon this?

A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

Fh-Fh-Fh-Fh-Fh-Fh-Fh-Fh-Fh

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

We must do what we can for the Great Green Crusade. More women should be encouraged to wear this.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

its no problem. i have afew family members in the marines right now

oh boy

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

you are one strange dude....a little Hannibal Lechterish

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"I have only three things to teach: simplicity, patience, and compassion. These three are your greatest treasures." - Lao Tzu

How very satisfying.

--
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan

Do your part for the environment. Save the planet and so on and so forth: [link]

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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ~Hanlon's Razor

"Dad said it wouldn't hurt and that it was just for a bit but when the pictures were all done my holes felt so sore :C" =MarieChan